Meg
Registered: March 26, 2006
Posts: 1,561
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Reply with quote | #1 |
Kerry and I were talking about this topic sometime in the last couple of weeks. And now I read this column by Peter Schmuck that also addresses the subject.
Kerry and Craig are off to JSB Baseball Camp today but I'm sure Kerry will chime in on the subject once he's back.
Meg
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nothingman
Registered: March 27, 2006
Posts: 2,324
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Reply with quote | #2 |
I have a hard time with this kind of stuff because it seems to imply that money = championships. I don't doubt that the Yankees benefit from their largesse, but I struggle to believe that they are where they are simply because of their revenue stream. The Yankees payroll actually went down from 2008 (albeit an immaterial amount). And how much do they give in revenue sharing? I'm also not sure how or why Schmuck seems to imply that teams in the "NE Corridor" have some big advantage...I mean, I haven't seen that advantage in DC or Baltimore. The Phillies have a good payroll because they are in the prime of their championship window. Were the Phillies big spenders ten years ago?
In the playoffs almost anything can happen. There will almost always be a large market team from the northeast in the playoffs, especially when the other teams in the division are almost trying to lose.
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backstopbob
Moderator
Registered: March 26, 2006
Posts: 4,001
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Reply with quote | #3 |
Michael, let's just say the Yankees subtract, say, $60M off their payroll, so they are only even with the other big spenders. Do they even win their division? Maybe they do, but I'm not sure. I certainly don't think they are the WS faves. Their spending doesn't make things impossible, and there was a time that the O's were up there with the big spenders, too. But baseball is what it is, and the Yanks have an incredibly stupid advantage that would be negated if the sport wasn't willing to go along with what the Yanks do by not letting teams move into Jersey. But considering attendance figures, it seems that not many people care.
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Meg
Registered: March 26, 2006
Posts: 1,561
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Reply with quote | #4 |
The real point is that the Yankee$ can absorb the hit of a player falling off the table and not even blink. Even when it happens to a couple of the players they have under contract.
How many teams could afford a Carl Pavano situation? Not even the Red Sox can do that more than once. For a team like the Orioles, it sets them back to the point where they can't afford to sign any other big contracts. And for even smaller teams, they can't even contemplate one player with that kind of contract even if it were to work out.
Meg
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nothingman
Registered: March 27, 2006
Posts: 2,324
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Reply with quote | #5 |
I don't really argue their advantage, but if I had to come up with the list of reasons that they continue to win, I'm not sure it would be #1.
They took two pretty big risks this past off-season in Sabathia and Burnett. Seven and Five years are long contracts for guys with some injury flags. From watching the Yankees all these years, it's pretty amazing that they have developed/traded all that young talent. I think the big payroll allows them the luxury at times of dealing a prospect and throwing money at guys like Damon and Matsui. But the fact remains that they developed Jeter, Rivera, Posada and Pettitte all at once (Can you imagine a AAA team with two definite HOF and two borderline HOF on it?). Plus they developed Cano, got a lot of mileage out of Wang...all that cheap help (at one time or another) allowed them to spend all that extra holes to package holes. But they are a rich team with a good head start.
It's also entirely possible that in a couple years they could maybe be vulnerable somewhat given the age of so many of their players, however great they may be.
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bc
Registered: April 06, 2006
Posts: 71
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Reply with quote | #6 |
The point of their spending advantage is that they didn't take a big risk this past offseason. While large, long-term contracts are a risk for other teams, the Yankees have already proven that they can afford to pay tens of millions for no return.
And while it's true that they developed a lot of good talent at once in the 90's, they still have most of that talent because they can afford to pay huge contracts. It's nice that they developed their own players, but most of the ones you listed are being paid more than they are worth to most other teams.
They do other things well. They have better international scouting and recruiting than many teams (though they have larger budgets here again). They have at least good general management and a good manager. And because they have one so much and have that Yankee, lots of players prefer playing for them than elsewhere.
But in the end, their primary advanatge is financial, and it's not even close. |
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DavidL
Registered: March 26, 2006
Posts: 1,274
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Reply with quote | #7 |
Sure, the Yankees have a big financial edge on lots of other teams, but there are some who can at least come close - the Mets, the Red Sox, the Angels, and the Dodgers all have pretty good revenue streams themselves. The Mets have been a superb example of how to waste a ton of money, the Red Sox and Angels have had some success, but not comparable to what the Yankees have had, and the Dodgers seem to fall somewhere in the middle.
What I find encouraging about the way the Yankees are run currently is that, since Cashman managed to wrangle control of the organization from the Tampa mafia, he's pretty much refused to trade any of the real talent in the farm system for established vets who are likely close to the end of their peak (Santana, Halladay) or are just overrated (Holliday). I'm much happier having Sabathia and Hughes, Kennedy (recovering from injury, but a good end of the season in AAA), and Melky than just Santana. And one of his real talents is finding supporting role players for cheap - guys like Hairston and Hinske, who have made contributions and were acquired for B or C level prospects. Meanwhile, guys like Francisco Cervelli, who filled in admirably while Posada and Molina were both hurt, and may be only the 3 best catching prospect in the system, and Ramiro Pena are still there.
But in response to a few comments - even for the Yankees, the money they spent on CC, AJ, and Tex represents a risk. They have greater resources than other teams, true, but they're not bottomless. If those 3 had crashed and burned, the Yankees would be in a world of hurt. Comparing any of them to Pavano is, frankly, ludicrous - Pavano was $10M/year for 4 years. Alot of teams could have overcome that disastrous contract. But it's peanuts compared to CC, AJ, and Tex. Even the Yankees would not have been able to overcome $70M/year in unproductive salary. I think a closer comparison is Giambi's contract, and I think it's fair to say that that contract did hobble them over its last few years.
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bc
Registered: April 06, 2006
Posts: 71
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Reply with quote | #8 |
I think it's absurd to say that $70M/yr in wasted salary would hobble them, and also that their financial advantage is not that large.
In 2008, the Yankees spent more than $70M more than any other team. If that salary had been wasted, they would have been as crippled as every other team in baseball!
It's true, teams can waste large amounts of money (though the Mets made the playoffs 2 or 3 times in the last decade, as has every other team with a large payroll). |
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nothingman
Registered: March 27, 2006
Posts: 2,324
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Reply with quote | #9 |
Lots of interesting points, bc and David.
I'm really not sure that money is the primary advantage, though. While their payroll is pretty disgusting comparatively, it's not like they currently have the bad contracts that they've had in the past (Giambi, Pavano, etc.). They are paying a lot of coin to AROD, Jeter, Teixeira, Sabathia, Burnett, Damon, Posada, Rivera and Matsui. The Matsui and Damon deals don't seem all that great given their defensive limitations, but for the most part those contracts - while overpays - aren't really remarkably inefficient deals. If they had two or three clunkers in that group then I don't think they win the division...if Sabathia or Burnett were to get hurt, if AROD were to have a more serious back injury...those kinds of things would really hurt them.
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JeffO
Registered: March 26, 2006
Posts: 1,111
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Reply with quote | #10 |
Quote: Originally Posted by nothingman It's also entirely possible that in a couple years they could maybe be vulnerable somewhat given the age of so many of their players, however great they may be.
Frankly, I cannot understand how anyone can root for the Yankees unless they fall into one or more of these categories.
1) born before 1966
2) family history of Yankee fans
3) born in Bronx
4) masochists
Either way, winning cannot bring as much enjoyment as if there was an even financial playing field. It's like the varsity against the JV's.
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